Once in a Blue Moon

4 out of 5 Facebook users express that their presence on Facebook makes them a worse person than they really are.

The night air is so still you can see the eddies and currents of smoke form and change as they rise from a smoldering fire through otherwise undetected changes in the local atmosphere.

I eat a piece of key lime pie.

We make pizza dough from scratch.

A kid scrapes the skin off the knuckles of his foot.

A different kid gets a bloody nose.

The TV stays off and books gain a significant share in the balance of the conversation.

You look up why a blue moon is called a blue moon because it definitely isn’t the color.

Molecular Tinker Toys

I think this stuff is pretty cool. Just like Legos or Tinker Toys can be assemble into complex and cool designs, simple molecular component are assembled to make other cool things. Gold star to anyone who identifies the molecular toy that is shown tinkered above.

Good in a Pinch

When short on nacho cheese simply lay slices of American cheese over a bed of tortilla chips.  Sprinkle Tabasco over the chips and cheese.  Microwave for 30 seconds and enjoy.

Cost Benefit Analysis

Leaves have a job to do. In the economy of the plant they are the producers. Chloroplast in the plant harness photons from the sun to turn water, acquired through the roots, and carbon dioxide, obtained from the atmosphere, into sugar. Sugar is molecular gold for the plant because it can be broken down to be used as energy or repackaged and assembled into more complex carbohydrates like cellulose and starch.

However when the economy is down due to shortages in natural resources the tree has to make some savvy business decisions.  The most productive leaves are those that get the most sunlight, the ones on the outermost part of the canopy. The central leaves also produce but with much less efficiency. When times are good there is more than enough resources to be processed by the efficient and less efficient leaves. But when resources are scarce the tree closes down its least effective factories and reallocates the available raw materials toward the best producers. 

Then, like any factory that becomes unoccupied, the vacancy leads to disrepair and in the end the leaves fall in the middle of summer rather than fall in the fall when they should.

What I Learned From a Magnum Opus

Tonight, after several months of sometimes intermittent and sometimes intense reading, I finished Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged. The first thing that struck me when I first started was the artistic writing style and what impressed me throughout the thousands of page swipes required to finish was the artistic writing style.  As a guy who has spent some time writing over the last several months I know that maintaining quality is tough. When I was about 60% into the book I watched a documentary about Rand and Atlas Shrugged.  I learned that she thought Atlas would be written relatively quickly but in actuality it took about 6 years to complete. That’s a long time, but it ended up being a really, really long book and really good too.  

I enjoyed the read a lot. One of the eerie/interesting aspects was how much the book, written over 60 years ago, reflected some of the things going on today.  There were several times during my months of reading when I heard our prominent politicians expressing ideas almost directly from the book.  I found myself thinking, “That sounds just like the bad guys in Atlas Shrugged.” It was weird, but not that weird, considering the divided landscape we are in and the extremely polar political and philosophical climate Rand portrays.

I really enjoyed the book but not everything sat well.  Rand is an atheist and holds a rejection of any supernatural concept as invalid for shaping her philosophy. The hero in Atlas explicitly expressed this position in an extended monologue over “3 hours” of novel time. The moment was meant to be a triumph, a line drawn in the sand, which would initiate the final dismantling of an already crumbling society.  However the clearly articulated philosophy was desiccated and disconnected in the speech where it had been passionate and relevant as it unfolded in the struggles and hesitancy of even the strongest people.  The book reminded us that people are flawed and in those flaws life gets messy. Where Rand’s philosophy falls short is where she fails to see that the messiness of life can yield amazing results.

Internet down. posting from a phone. the wired world sure does have us by the... wires.

Stumble

Not sure if any of you have ever used StumbleUpon but it is basically a website that suggests different websites based on the interests you plug in. It is in large part a(nother) good way to waste time on the internet which is what I have been doing tonight instead of writing.  Well, back to it.

The Miracle of Birth

There was no place more likely to extend a walk through visit into over an hour of standing and watching in anticipation than the Miracle of Birth building at the state fair.  As we walked in a new litter of pigs were on display and video of their birth was looping overhead.  Soon after a vet announced that a cow’s water had broken but that only meant there would be a birth in the next few hours.  

While looking at the pigs and chatting with one of the vet students attending the litter another student arrived to inform the fourth year that another sow was progressing and would be giving birth soon.  We naturally followed the action and within a few minutes had found a place at the front of a farrowing crate.  Around the same time the video screens changed to a live shot of the cow pen and a brief peak at an emerging hoof. At that point we never articulated it but we were stuck in that place until a new cow and some new pigs were in the room with us. 

The boys craned their necks to get a view, the youngest asking to climb whatever structure posed a barrier to his vision in order to inspect the events. In the end about 10 percent of our day at the fair was spent waiting, not for a ride or a free home depot bucket, but for a miracle, the miracle of birth, and it was worth it.

There's Still Hope Yet

I had the opportunity to talk to a middle schooler today about biology. The conversation took the form of a smattering of best of bio topics. Diffusion, concentration gradients, genetics, Punnett squares, homo and heterozygous, dominant recessive.  It was a great time. Thinking back on the latest series of posts I asked the young fellow what his favorite biological macromolecule was. His response: Lipids. Why? They store so much energy! Boom! There’s still hope yet.

There was a lot of hope to be had. I also had the great fortune to talk to some high schoolers who are national and world champions/finalists in robotics. It was amazing because these were kids who could have easily become loners. But given the community to thrive in and the opportunity to do real and challenging work these nerds (I can say that without offense because I stand among them) became confident and capable beyond what you would expect of them as they approach the beginning of their sophomore year.

There is still hope yet.

Lipids

I love lipids. I love lipids in so many ways. For one, French fries. Without lipids a French fry would only ever be a baked potato wedge. Sure the oven can generate some tasty flavors but it can’t compare to plunging food of any kind into the transformative power of a hot vat of lipid.

Lipids are oils, fats, waxes and so much more, which brings up the other thing I love about lipids, their diversity. The same class of molecule that converts a wedge of potato into a culinary delight also encompasses the wax that builds up in your ears or the very membranes that contain all of the contents of our cells. 

Many think of lipids as a lazy molecule. Ok maybe not in those terms but play it out and you’ll see that you too may have accused lipids of lethargy. “The fat in our food makes us fat and …lazy.” “The wax in our ears just sits there, lazily inhibiting auditory abilities or at best just looking unsightly.”  “The lipid bilayer membrane is a passive ‘lazy’ barrier between the inside and outside of the cell.”

Are you hearing yourself voice these gross mischaracterizations of the noble lipid molecules? If so you should know that the fat in food is an incredibly nutrient dense storage system that prevents us from dying of starvation far after our own will to stave off laziness would put us in the grave. You’re starving to death? Not likely, thanks to lipids.

The wax in your ears is a barrier to prevent water and other undesirables from entering into the ear. Bacteria and fungus would have free rein on your eardrum and all of its other requisite ear bits if not for the fungiogermicidal properties of ear wax. Thanks for staving off frequent earaches lipids.  I really appreciate not moaning in agony throughout the night.

And the membranes. Far too long have proteins absorbed all of the credit for being the gatekeepers of the cell. Sure proteins play their part but like any toll attendee they exact a price. “Want entrance essential nutrient?” Says the transport protein, “Sure, no problem, after you pay the price in ATP! Mua hahahaha!” But without the lipids congregating around the protein the glory hog wouldn’t likely be in the right place. The lipids of the cellular membrane organize their cell, not by sapping it of some of its energy, but simply by obeying the laws of thermodynamics and self assembling in their lowest energy state. Thank you l for being the shoulders on which proteins have stood on in order that they could see a bit further and stand out in the crowd of the oft disparaged biological macromolecule; the humble, the noble, lipid.

Nucleic Acid

If proteins are like beads on a string nucleic acids are the pigments that give the beads their color and personality. Well, maybe that is a little too colorful to be helpful. RNA and DNA are nucleic acids and nucleic acids are long polymers with 3 basic parts; a sugar, a phosphate and a nitrogenous base. The sugar and phosphate make up the backbone of the molecule, linking through phosphodiester bonds. The coding section of the nucleic acid comes in the nitrogenous bases.  These are the ATCG or AUCG of DNA and RNA. (For more on coding visit a previous poston the topic).

Carbohydrates

Carbs get a bad rap these days. Sure it was worse about 5 years ago but there is still some residual animosity for these life essential molecules.  Biologically speaking carbs make up the bodies of bugs and birch trees (all other arthropods and plants too) in the form of chitin and cellulose. Carbs are in our stomach when we eat them and in our DNA when we, we… are. Carbohydrates are a part of us; they are necessary, not evil.

Protein

Proteins are like the origami of the natural world.  Like origami starts with a flat piece of paper a protein start with a straight sequence of amino acids. While the paper is folded by expert hands to take shape and develop a form or indicate a function the amino acids  are twisted and folded by the specific attractions and repulsions of the physical attributes of the sequence.  Hydrophiles face the aqueous environment of the cell while hydrogen, Van der Waals and ionic bonds twist and shape the protein towards its functional form.

What are you made of?

Protein, Carbohydrates, Nucleic Acids and Lipids.

Get This

2003 was 9 years ago.

Sound Wars

50, 60, 70 dB barraging the internal workings of a delicate system working on calculations big and small. Without a proper defense the calculations fall apart, scattering like broken glass on a concrete floor.  Sure, sometimes when the shards are melted down and repurposed the products are as stunning as the original, but work lost is work lost.

Coming in defense of the mind is an active protector. The hero is a chameleon, recognizing the character of its foe and providing the perfect protection. Rather than swinging a bigger club or attempting a flanking maneuver, this defender wields a mirror. No matter how hard the enemy strikes, every blow is perfectly returned for a perfect outcome of peaceful and productive silence.  

Differing Opinions

The scene starts walking out of a movie theatre and continues in the car.

Husband: Well that was a disappointment.

Wife: What? I thought that was a great movie. What was wrong with that?

Husband: Everything was predictable; we’ve seen it all before.

I don’t remember the first two.

Husband: It doesn’t matter, it was all the same. There was no twist or anything interesting or new.

Wife: I thought there was good action and I like the actors.

Husband: Do you have any criticism for the movie?

Wife: Umm… I wish they would have kissed at the end.

One of my favorite new(ish) go to phrases

It’s gonna be a great day!

7 hours down the drain

With 7 hours left until I go to work I’m always compelled, sometimes against my own wishes, to go to sleep. All that time down the drain. There is a growing movement to use used water for non sanitary uses. This gray water is seen as a good opportunity to save water overall by avoiding “wasting” really clean water on irrigation or flushing the toilet. I think this sounds like a pretty good idea. I wonder if we could harvest the gray time that goes down the drain when we sleep and find uses that don’t require such crisply clean time.

If you find out how let me know.

The Parable of Cell Division and Differentiation

Let’s face it we are physical people. We have bodies, we need food, we live in a physical world. It is no wonder then that our first and greatest faith is placed in our physicalness and the physical context we exist in. If you find it uneasy to accept this truth I’ll provide two examples: The first for recognition and the second for comfort.

Recognition:

 Recognize that you are sitting in a pew.  How do you know that the pew would not dissolve from under you when you sat on it? The answer is… Faith!

“Oh wait” you might object, “That’s not faith. I know I won’t fall through the pew because I’ve never fallen through the pew and I’ve sat in this seat for the last 2, 5, 10, 50 years and I’ve never fallen through. And besides that I sit in chairs all the time and I never fall though, unless of course the chair is broken or poorly made.”

So you’re saying you have a reason for your faith. You are prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope you have…that you won’t fall through the chair.

Yes. We have faith in the physical.

Faith is a simple response but as we’ve seen it is also a very full answer.  Our faith in the physical is our first and strongest faith because we observe it, we test it we correlate our findings and our faith becomes so strong that we don’t even recognize it as faith but call it by a different name. Truth.

Comfort:

This idea of faith in the physical may still be unsettling or even in some way seem wrong, especially as we gather together here in this Christian setting.   We can take comfort in knowing that God put his faith, his first and strongest faith, the faith that was with him in the beginning, in the physical.

For God so loved the world that he sent his son. God sent his son, Jesus, to a physical world, to be a physical man to bring his people back to him. We can take comfort knowing that God recognized our affinity for faith in the physical long before we did and sent his son to teach us heavenly things, in large part, through the physical world we live in. 

Parable:

Jesus teaches us about heavenly things by pointing out the truths of the physical, the same physical truths we easily recognize and accept without thinking about them because they are the realities we live with from the moment we come into this world.

Jesus points to the physical in parables and if we have eyes to see and ears to hear we can correlate the familiar with the unfamiliar, the physical with the spiritual. Jesus uses our first and greatest faith in the physical to illustrate THE first and greatest faith in him.

So what can we learn from a mustard seed? Let’s find out!

Mt. 13:31

He told them another parable: The kingdom of Heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so the birds of the air come and perch in its branches”

Jesus said he tells us the truth so let’s review just what those truths are.

In Mt 13:31 we read -

Truth 1: The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed.

Truth 2: Mustard seeds are small.

Truth 3: Mustard plants grow really big.

Later in Matthew 13:35 Jesus tells the disciples:

“I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter the things hidden since the creation of the world.”

On this side of faith, when we have eyes to see and ears to hear, the truths of the mustard seed illustrate powerful spiritual concepts.

 Faith is powerful.  Small, seemingly insignificant things can have a big impact.

Awesome! That’s true, God’s Truth. Thank you mustard seed. Thank you Jesus.

Yet are you left with any other questions? I am, and I think others might be too.

We want to know how. We want to know why. Pastor Kerry mentioned that kids ask questions like this. How? Why? We’ve heard about how Jesus appreciated the faith of a child and a child’s faith is simple and pure but it is not immune from questions?

For example a child might ask: how does it get so big? What happens between small seed and giant plant? What happens between humble beginnings and the kingdom of God?

A few weeks ago we had a stink bug lay a bunch of eggs on the glass of our backdoor and a week later they hatched.  Upon observing the change from egg to nymph stink bug my youngest son, Kellen, asked, “How did they get so big?”

To this I said, “Well Kellen, It’s like the Kingdom of God.” No I’m just kidding. That just wouldn’t have made sense. Instead, naturally I answered, “Cell Division and Differentiation.”

Ok so maybe I’m not as good a teacher as Jesus, but we’re also not comparing apples to apples.  I gave a physical answer to a physical question. And even if I had been trying to explain a spiritual truth at least I was on the right track. 

Start with the physical. That is where we live, that is what we know. Then use the truth of the physical to illuminate the truth of the spiritual.

You know, like Jesus would, with a parable.

Kellen’s question about the stink bugs is really the same one I asked about the mustard seed, and the Kingdom of God. How does it get so big? And you know what? In true parable form, an exploration of the physical explanation can illuminate the spiritual truth of the expansion of the kingdom of God.

So let’s try it out with the parable of… Cell Division and Differentiation

In order for the parable to work we first need to know the physical context that it draws from so let’s start with cell division.  Be warned I’m going to jump organisms a bit but that is possible because the principles are pretty universal across organisms.

This is Xenopus. Xenopus is not a mustard, or a stink bug, it is a frog. And also the subjects of many developmental biologists gaze and therefore there are some pretty neat pictures!  It starts as a single cell and then as you can see from the video the single cell divides into 2 then 2 to 4, 4 to 8, 16, 32 and on and on until there are hundreds of cells packed together.  This is cell division, and while this example comes from a frog it happens similarly in all animals, this is how we all got our start. The cells are in community, they have shared experiences and a shared lineage.

So that was cell division in early development. We could also talk about how established cells of the body continually divide and create replacements for themselves before they ultimately die, leaving everything they have accumulated over their lives to the body they have been a part of. But we’re not talking about that and besides Amy covered that in her tithing and financial planning sermon a few weeks ago.

So if this is going to work as a parable it should also be pretty simple so I created this little cartoon of the blastula (or big hunk of cells) that we saw forming earlier. What we couldn’t see from the last video was what was happening inside of the mass.  After the initial phases of division, cells start to become differentiated. The cells in green represent embryonic stem cells which have the potential to become any type of cell in the body.  Some of these will become the heart, some will be cartilage then bone while others will form kidneys, liver, brain, blood guts and on and on. It is this differentiation that moves us toward functionality. One body many parts.

So the model is nice for looking at but it also helps to see the real thing in action so let’s continue on with our friend the frog.

This video picks up where we left off in the first and we can see some real structures forming. The first part is called gastrulation and then neuralation. By the end of this video we can almost see the beginnings of a head. What we can’t see from this view is the further differentiation of cells further fated to become and beginning to form the spinal cord, heart, respiratory organs, connective tissue etc etc etc. Everything that is needed for the body to function comes from differentiation. What is even more difficult to see but essential to the process is the environmental physiochemical encouragement each cell gets to be different, to follow its purpose. To be a hand, a heart, a brain.

An important step later in development is the refinement of the parts. Here we are jumping organisms to a human, but again the process is the same for all animals.  In order for the foot to take on it’s full function some of the parts that were built up have to die. There is a programmed cell death, that carves away the old flesh revealing the refined organism ready to truly live.

 So, now with the physical to light the way does the parable hold up in revealing a spiritual truth? Does it help us answer how the kingdom gets big how we build the body of Christ? Maybe if we have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Closing:

If you didn’t realize it already we talked about science today. We’ve seen that science, and the investigation of the physical world around us can be lifted up as worship. Science can point us to the mind of God. Not in his prescription for how to build this world or breathe life into that body, rather we are pointed to his power, orderliness, his promotion of the truth and his unlimited grace to meet us where we are.

But the methodology of the parable is not limited to science, but is universal across all areas of our experience. 

Faith is like a chair, it will always hold you up when you rest on it, unless it has fallen into disrepair.

Faith is like hitting a softball, wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, but don’t forget to keep your eye on the ball.

We can see God through the parables of our lives whether examining the super small or the grandeur of the universe, as long as we have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Parable

Jesus teaches us about heavenly things by pointing out the truths of the physical, the same physical truths we easily recognize and accept because we observe, test and correlate them with the rest of our physical realities from the moment we come into this world.

Jesus points to the physical in parables and if we have eyes to see and ears to hear we can correlate the familiar with the unfamiliar, the physical with the spiritual. Jesus uses our first and greatest faith in the physical to illustrate THE first and greatest faith in him.

Night Ride

There is a great stretch of path that was just repaved from the Theo Wirth Park Way to down town. The ride is super smooth and relatively flat making it a nice speedy commute. However there are no lights and when the sun is down the expanse of the valley and the foliage that rises like walls of a canyon on either side make for very dark conditions. 

I’m glad to have had my beautiful riding companion with me tonight as the extreme urban darkness was already eerie but being alone would have been downright scary. For one thing, not all headlights are created equal and on this leg of the journey a source to illuminate the path is a must.  Later we were passed by a regular night rider with an awesome headlight that rivaled those of the oncoming car lights that saturated our already super dilated eyes.

The rider lit up our path from behind for a few hundred feet as he approached then wished us well on the rest of our journey as he steadily moved passed us soon to crest a rise in the path and never be seen again. This illuminating figure was typical for the rest of the bikes out past dark. Everyone was out with a purpose and everyone cast their well wishes and warm greetings in all directions which lit up the night air as well.  

Christian Metabolism

We all have certain ubiquitous genes whose expression is necessary for our Christian survival.  Glycolysis is the multistep chemical breakdown of a molecule of glucose into two molecules of pyruvate: the first stage of cellular respiration in all organisms: occurs in the cytoplasmic fluid. Christian disciplines reading the bible and prayer are like the glucose of Christian living. Christian fellowship, Bible study and study groups (like Sunday school) are the glucolysis of the Christian life.

Life and Death

It is cool to see wildlife. We have a few fox in our neighborhood and they show up from time to time, trotting down the street. Tonight a raccoon ran across the street and right under my moving car. I only saw it as it scurried into the beam of my headlights and the unmistakable thud told me what the stilled and curled form revealed in the rear view mirror.

Needless to say I was shocked. By the time I thought to stop and check on the animal’s status I was half way down a freeway ramp. I realized that the blow might not have been immediately fatal and I determined to stop on the way back. I quickly began to consider what I would do if I found the animal dead or alive. Would the correct course of action present itself when the time came? If it was alive but injured, what would I do?

Returning from my evening appointment I retraced my steps expecting to see the animal on the ground. However as I rolled down the road I didn’t see it.  With a pair of headlights approaching in the rear view I couldn’t linger too long on the road. I doubled back, this time on the same side of the road where I hit the animal, and it wasn’t there. 

It was only about 45 minutes before I was able to return and I’m not sure if another citizen moved the animal or if it had crawled back into the wilderness. Back in the wilderness to heal or to die. The woods are right next to the road, and I was in Minneapolis.  One of my initial thoughts was how dumb the raccoon was to run right into the path of my car. Then a reoccurring thought modified my annoyance. The wild was there long before I or the car or the road ever were.   

Fine Line

Why so fine? How did it get that fine? What happens if gets broken? Crossed? Stretched? Is it a line segment, ray or true unbroken infinite line? Hmm? Does it have height? Hmm?

Waning Gibbous

Two dogs in tow the moon floated in the density of the soup sky.  Walk, pull, sniff, turn. Pavement, grass, weeds, trees. Insects barrage the headlight but ignore the head. Several dozen astronomical units away a different rover moves curious about the surface. Two moons rise like helium in a less dense atmosphere. Sniff, turn, roll over.

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Usain Bolt may be the loosest athlete ever.  

Men’s gymnastics floor exercise is impressive but has the strangest… pageantry? of any sport.

Fencing is the worst spectator sport of all time.

Baseball isn’t an Olympic sport anymore.

Golf will be reinstated for 2016.

Ryan Seacrest reported on the social media implications of these Olympics. Gag. Excuse me. Double Gag.

What if there was no controversy?

As the games have progressed more and more allegations of cheating have emerged.  The most interesting competitive con has been the badminton thrown matches but the most coverage has gone to the usual drug related charges.  Once again memories from my childhood were invoked and answered the question; What if there was no controversy? http://www.hulu.com/watch/4090

Check Up

I had an annual (or triennial) physical this morning. Every time one of these appointment approaches I get an image in my mind of a thorough examination of my physical health. I conjure memories of Heathcliff Huxtable sauntering on a treadmill with a dozen or so leads attached to his torso, followed by various tests and a long heart to heart with the doc.(Refresh your memory here ifyou’ve forgotten)

Instead I got a re-measure of my height and weight and a brief set of questions: Do you smoke? Do you exercise? Do you wear your seatbelt? Have you heard of whooping cough? Do you want the vaccine?

I Ask: What about this? What about that?

Doc says: We don’t cover this in a wellness exam. We’ll worry about that when you’re 50.

I guess I always expect some more pageantry or some kind of life altering moment. At least I got the hot new Tdap vaccine. It was pretty cool and I felt really hip, now and wow when they asked me if I wanted it and I said, “Chyaiah!“

Under Served

Tonight I attended an awesome finale for the Freedom School. The school is an outreach program of the Kwanzaa Community Church in North Minneapolis and targets neighborhood kids who are at risk for failing in school and finding the other troubles that surrounds them.

Tonight’s program featured singing, stepping, dancing, drumming and drama and I must say the show was excellent.  There were strong themes of personal empowerment and the need to take control of your own education.  The kids were great and it was clear that their teachers did an amazing job with them this summer.

An explicit message relayed through the drama was the idea that the schools are under serving the black community. Gross disparities in graduation, suspension and imprisonment rates were cited.  A second group was named as under serving the kids but with far more nuance and care.  The care and tact was needed because the group named was watching the performance. The group implicitly named as under serving these kids was their family, friends and community.

Worst/Best 10

A buddy of mine has gotten into Crossfit, a strength and conditioning program.  One of the main components is the Workout of the Day (or WOD) that is posted online and then everyone does it that day. Tonight I joined my friend for the first time and the main part of the work out was only 10 minutes. In that time all we had to do were 5 pull-ups, 10 push-ups and 15 body weight squats. Then repeat that over and over until the 10 minutes were up. To add to the fun we started with an extra 10 pounds attached to our bodies.

I thought I might die after the second round (not really die don’t worry any of you worriers) and I shed the extra 10 lbs.  The third round forced me to get creative with the pull-ups following the Crossfit mantra of get it done by any means necessary. After the 4^th round I was eying the clock, willing it to continue ticking down to zero. The 5^th round closed with 5 seconds remaining in which I mustered one more jumping pull up.

I can definitely see why there is such a cult following of the sport/fitness craze. It was really cool to work so hard in such a short span and so simply too and crazy to know that those who have been at it a while did 10-12 rounds.